Do no harm

AGREED!

*brings a kettle, tea bags, milk, sugar and a spoon*

TEA ANYONE!?!

ROFLMAO!

Yes we have, and no it doesnt!!

Just like a butch lesbian maybe....or a docile bulldog...whichever you prefer....

Do you know i completely forgot about the chain of causationa and your right.

i did mention that it was impossible to know everything and that therefore never acting would lead on a downward spiral. It is only a theory, unfortunatley that is the nature of all my philosophies in theory they should all work but it would require the total to the letter following from the entire population, one person can totaly destroy an ethical guide.

That is why i very loosley base it on utilitarian views. the flaws in that theory are numerous to say the least.

My idea on divination before an act of magic is to discover any major flaws in what you are trying to do, taking actions to the extreme would land us in the buttery fly effect and that is definatley a different post.

Do i hear the kettle, coffe pleas milk in before water and two sugars

*hands out tea* evryone happy? No harm done? Good!

Lol yeahmy debates tend to end like taht eventually, until someone mentions it again. But tahts what i love about a gooddebate, at the end of it i've always picked up a few new ideas to add to my head. Philosophy works great for me because nothing is concrete i can always change my mind trying to find something that fits perfectly.

By the by have done Plato yet, specifically his forms, if so then m,aybe the point of the Do no harm statement is just a the form of goodness that we should all be shadowing.

thanks for the tea, i think next time we might have to plan it a bit so there are brandy and cigars that would work out much better.

something like that yeah.

the cave is used to illustrate that, if all we can see are shadows on a wall then taht is what we would consider the entire world to be until stepping out into this world. It shows taht what we have been looking at are mere shaodows of reality.

Plaos forms offers the idea that we are doing similar, what we see hear e.t.c are just shadows of the perfect entity. For instance forms state that if we see the form of beauty, every one would agree it is the most beatiful thing ever simply because i is. Fact. no personal feelings about it, and that everything we see and thinkn oh thats pretty or beatiful are just shadows. That is wht i was saying maybe there is a form of the perfect Do no harm, in which it is a logically viable and prfect set of ethical guidelines but we who dont inhabit the plane of forms can only try to emulate it by copying, it is just a shadow of that true form.

Plata was incredibly arrogant by saying that only a philosopher would ever be able to see these true forms only in momentary limpse because thwy search so hard for the truth. But thats another book,about his philosopher king and eventual self executed execution.

I hope i explained the forms fairly well its a bit difficult to explain, even plato used a whole book lol.

BB

*jumps up from the shadows with monumentous amounts of snacks and crockery*

HERE!

Yay! Do I get some this time?

of course! All is welcome! I make the best tea!

Interesting debate Aoife and Zephron. Thank you. I enjoy a good debate as well but have deliberately avoided getting into anything too heavy on this forum.

I asked the question about doing no harm because although it is a core principal or guideline in Wicca practices, it does not appear to be particularly defined which naturally leads to a lot of subjectivity (as you have both pointed out). In one respect this will lead to debate and possibly even conflict with certain people that I have read about. On the other hand it is this non-specific approach that allows people to form their own opinions which is another reason I find Wiccan beliefs so fascinating. One thing I abhor is dogma and whilst there are certainly guidleines within the Wiccan belief system, it is appears to me to be nowhere near dogmatic, particularly when compared to belief systems such as christianity.

As a side point, I do not know if you are aware of this but there are actually over 400 (413 I think) commandments within the christian's old testament. Some are so daft that it is not surprising that the well known ten are the only ones that people ever mention. Did you know that you should be stoned to death for wearing clothing that comprises of two different fibres for example? Yers, well, I won't start ranting about the bible here - I might burn a hole in the forum!

Lol i knew thre were some ridiculous comandments in the bible but that one is the best i'v heard.

What i love reading about is all the things that hve been ommitted or altered in he bible i find it fascinating. You know without the bible i think Christianity seems like a really nice religion, trust man to take a good idea and cock it up. lol

Dont sit out Ook get in there, rile some feathers, hell smack Aoife in the mouth if you want, i mite partake of some of that popcorn if this is going to get really interesting

BB

Zephron wrote:

Lol i knew thre were some ridiculous comandments in the bible but that one is the best i'v heard.

There's a lot more like that one I can assure you.

Zephron wrote:

What i love reading about is all the things that hve been ommitted or altered in he bible i find it fascinating. You know without the bible i think Christianity seems like a really nice religion, trust man to take a good idea and cock it up. lol

Oral history, politics and a lot of very liberal cutting and pasting - that's what it is, and badly done at that. The fluffy, loving image of christianity keeps liberal christians from looking elsewhere imho, plus the fact it is not something they have been brought up to question y society. In truth, if they actually sat down and read it properly they would see how wrong that perception is on SO many levels unless they are fundamentalists of course, but then that would mean they would have to admit that the Earth is actually round, flat and is supported by four pillars (as the bible states).

Zephron wrote:

Dont sit out Ook get in there, rile some feathers, hell smack Aoife in the mouth if you want, i mite partake of some of that popcorn if this is going to get really interesting

Ahh, well that assumes I have a lot of opposing opinions to one of the brightest spirits I have had the pleasure of meeting (albeit briefly). The fact is, I think that anything as open ended as the 'Harm none' guideline will lead to a vast variety of subjective views - as a deist it is something I am accustomed to as is is very much accepted by deists that with free will and reason comes many variations on any subject. As a result, on this matter, unless there was a particularly strong view that I really opposed (something accepted universally as truly 'bad') then I would not see anyone's opinion as 'wrong'.

Sorry to disappoint, but it does not mean you cannot enjoy your popcorn anyway.

oo i'm familiar with the cave illustration, however it came up in my a level physics class when we were discussing string theory and the fact that it makes multiple dimensions possible however we are just not at the correct vantage point to be able to see them.

an harm none hmm an interesting one, tbh i don't think you can really do anything without it harming someone, when talking about this is it purely humans or is it extended to animals, if so all animals?? i mean your pretty much likely to step on some sort of insect when you walk on grass so does that mean you can't walk on grass incase you do harm??

i'm very interested in the intent vs outcome part of this debate as to which is the more meaningful and which variable the wiccan rede applies to.
and with the questions it raises leading into more questions on such topics as free will, fate/destiny etc,

been a while since i've had a good debate, got a good one at uni on thursday about ethical issues of using animals in research, gonan be good